jdonohoe, please let me expand on the issues a little bit, after first commenting that although I haven't researched the historical issues myself (and as a Unitarian was encouraged to focus more on the "spirit" of things), my money is on R. Lady.

What bothers me about the whole dialogue is a notion raised on another thread: that because people have not embraced Christ as The Messiah, they are of necessity lacking in faith, hope, charity, devotion, and the other positive human qualities that Christian people like to refer to as "their values." Can you please expand on why you think it is necessary for people to accept Christ as their personal Messiah in order to demonstrate those values? which existed long before the era of Christ? and that are in practice throughout the world as normalized social behavior among the human species?

Is it your concept that Jesus' mother was an uncharitable person, in other words? such that she did not "see the light" about the kindness with which she should treat her own mother and sisters, until after he came? And are you convinced, since the coming of Christ, that people of his faith treat humanity as he taught them to?

It's the extension of the "I believe in Christ" argument that is offensive: the notion that because others don't believe, they are not good people (and cannot get into "Heaven"). How far is this from the argument that they therefore don't deserve to exist? Not very far -- and that's why it's an offensive and threatening thought to have and share.

Could you please consider this a challenge to that whole general idea, and respond? and also, I am waiting for some -- any -- established statement of fact that contradicts what R. Lady has obviously researched and concluded.

There are so many wonderfully investigative thoughts, here.

It is absolutely the case that there exists a lot of controversy over Josephus' writings. Ancient writings in general tend to send a zap of energy and excitement to the brains of many thinkers and scholars. Questions of authenticity, applicability, objectivity, manipulation---so many---come to the table in amazingly colorful ways.

Just to respond to Elkcreekgeek for a moment: yes, there have been major issues with scribal interpolation regarding Josephus' texts. The piece I put up was one modern biblical scholars have decided might have been closest to the original before scribal interpolation spoiled the true meat. The actual excerpt says a lot about Jesus specifically being the Messiah, and not a "man." There's some Christian lingo strewn here and there, that make present day scholars suspicious that those words did not come from Josephus, himself. The excerpt listed at the beginning of this thread is believed by those scholars to be the original material before manipulation.

But, at the end of the day, none of us can know. When you reach back thousands of years, we're looking into a time and people so distant from ourselves, it's very difficult, if not impossible to accurately/clearly understand what transpired between whom, when. All we have is stories passed from moment to moment, person to person, in various ways at various times, none--ever---no matter the historian involved, trustworthy as being free of subjective interpretation, ulterior motive, particular bias, etc.

For me, it's pretty clear Jesus existed. The man left one of the largest footprints a human life has ever pressed into the dirt of the earth. From the stories which sprung around his life, knowing which events were actual, which legend, which exaggerated, which left out, which absolutely true, is unfortunately beyond our grasp.

But bring our thread back into someplace more healing, more spiritual, I'll just mention that what many do experience in a very real way, each day---themselves, in the present moment---is a sense of the life inside them and around them, and a sense that that Life, is something big. Something breathtaking. And Something that reaches far past ourselves and each thing we can see. This Something is what we call "God," and many people have found the truth of their own experiences of God in the words of the gospels, and in the teachings of Jesus(Yeshua bar Joseph).

And to me, that is the greatest truth we can ever aspire toward even coming a distance away from understanding.

Follow the truth that guides you, and don't be afraid of where it takes you, because we are always in Life and soul of God.

Some good thoughts to reflect on:

Psalm 139:1-18

"If you look for truth, you might find comfort, in the end; if you look for comfort, you will not get either comfort or truth---only soft soap or wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair." --C.S. Lewis

I wish I could sit down and exchange thoughts with each one of you! Thanks so much for your words.

In God's Love and Peace,
Rev. Laura Hehner
(Deer Park UMC, Bailey)
https://www.facebook.com/dpumc

I appreciated your positive addition to the thread, Rev. Laura. On balance, all of those we've recalled as being spiritually enlightened have essentially brought forth the same message, it's just a very hard one for we puny humans to master. Love really is all that we need, no matter what word we use for it.

I really like that you use of "R. Lady" as "Our Lady" Queen of Heaven is a person I would put my money on as well. I believe that if you read another of my post you will see that good people can get to heaven without knowing Jesus. Certainly, there is evidence that our elder brothers, the Jewish people, are present in the Book of Revelations which was written by the Apostle John. However, even the Jewish people will likely need to live a life of virtue and good will in the eyes of God. I also believe that people who have never heard the Gospel; yet, live the Gospel will be a recipient of God's merciful love. Yet, we are told "the more people are given (ie. knowledge) the more that is expected of them". So, I do believe good people who are unaware of Jesus; yet, live a life consistent with His Teachings will find mercy. We who know Jesus and have experienced His Love do have an obligation to grow and nurture our relationship with Him through prayer, almsgiving, and fasting. We are also obligated to "carry our cross"; sometimes by carrying others burdens and lifting them up to God.
As for R. Lady's post, just among one allegation, you will find quite a bit of evidence of Jesus and His Apostles in historical documents, including Scripture, but also in other non-Canonical texts. But, the issue with the posts is that R. Lady passes off Scripture as an exception as if it wasn't written by eye witnesses. Outside of the Apostles, one can also read other early Church Fathers such as St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius of Antioch. Both of these Saints were martyred for their commitment to Jesus. Legend has it that St. Ignatius was one of the children whom the Apostles attempted to chase away when Jesus gathered them into Himself.

If you really want to know about the reality of the life of Jesus, then this website from Msgr. John P Meier provides information you need. He has written volumes on Our Lord, His Life and Ministry, His Miracles and His Apostles and companions.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messeng ... ature3.asp

AD or A.D. is an abbreviation of the Latin anno domini translated as year of our Lord and it references the year that Jesus was conceived or born, not the one in which he was killed.

RL chooses CE over AD, but her reference also uses the baseline of the year that Jesus was born, so I really don't understand why she bothers. Distinction without a difference, one of the logical fallacies, aptly describes the use of CE or BCE instead of AD and BC.

I'm happy so long as it doesn't turn into the same debacle as when we were going to go to the metric system. Remember?--for a little while, we were all meters and no feet. Then, it's as though we gave up and went back. With our luck, we will soon have four initials to untangle while we use our common sense to get the fast mental picture (mammoths did not walk around in 1580 AD/CE -- or probably not anyway).